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Two-tiered Journalism & A Two-tiered Justice System | Counter Narrative Ep. 209

February 09, 2024
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Two-tiered Journalism & A Two-tiered Justice System | Counter Narrative Ep. 209
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Two-tiered journalism and a two-tiered justice system.
We’re covering the Tucker interview with Putin and Biden weaseling his way out of a classified documents charge.
The 1st Amendment is on trial. Will the government be held accountable for censoring?
An update on the Missouri vs. Biden - the most important free speech case of our generation.
And the latest in the efforts to stop the shots. 

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Speaker 6:

Two-tier journalism and a two-tier justice system. We're covering the Tucker interview with Putin and Biden weaseling his way out of a classified documents charge. The First Amendment is on trial. Will the government be held accountable for censoring? And we have an update on the Missouri versus Biden, the most important free speech case of our generation. We also have the latest in efforts to stop the shots. That's all coming up. It's Friday, february 9. I'm Christy Lee, and this is the Counter Narrative the much anticipated Tucker-Putin interview dropped last night Two hours. No, I didn't make it through the whole thing, but I've seen some clips going to try and make it through the whole thing. Of course, the regime media, though, is changing. I'm sure they didn't watch it, but they're changing their narrative from he's a traitor for interviewing Russian President Vladimir Putin to claiming he was too easy on him. This after they had to admit they had to put in their own requests to interview Putin after calling him a traitor for interviewing Putin. Many topics were covered in this interview, such as, of course, the war in Ukraine, ai, elon Musk, nato, much more, and here's a clip of Putin wondering what many of us are wondering why America wastes so much money. Let's watch.

Speaker 8:

Do the United States need this? What for? Thousands of miles away from your national territory?

Speaker 6:

Don't you have anything better to do you?

Speaker 8:

have issues on the border issues, with migration issues, with the national debt more than $33 trillion. You have nothing better to do, so you should fight in Ukraine. Wouldn't it be better to negotiate with Russia, make an agreement already, understanding the situation that is developing today?

Speaker 6:

I did see him say in part of this interview that potentially they could give all this resolved within a few weeks. I mean that sounds a lot like what Trump has been saying he could get it done in 24 hours. So I don't know, but it's a lot of wasted money without even trying to have any peace. The way it's for spending abroad is serving to wake up. Even wokesters like Stephen Smith Watch this.

Speaker 9:

So you can pick and choose. What it came down to for me is this I see homeless folks in the streets of New York all the time that are American citizens. I damn sure see them in California. We've got poor, impoverished, starving people who were born and raised in this nation. How in the hell do we come up with a $53 million pilot program for illegals? But folks who are here legally are born here. We don't have enough of them. Just like we could come up with billions for Ukraine, but somehow some way we can't fix the homeless problem. I'm down for helping Israel. I'm down for helping address the situations with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Ok, I'm down for helping the Ukrainians and fighting off Russia. What about poor and desolate citizens here?

Speaker 6:

Because it's America last, of course. But again, while it was propaganda for Tucker to bring news straight from the source Putin himself, it's been fine to hear only from Zelensky, as the so-called journalists have fond all over the Ukrainian president Two-tiered journalism while we have a two-tiered justice system. Biden is cleared by special prosecutor her. I'm sure you're all shocked by that. Maggie Hemingway says it best. Here's her tweet she says yesterday Biden's DOJ announced they were letting their top party official off for decades of willful disclosure of classified info while trying to imprison Trump, their party's biggest director of power, over post-first administration document disputes Soviets, and these are the people that have an issue with Putin. The rationale for not prosecuting was very telling. Epic Times reports Biden is saying his memory is fine after the special counsel called it poor. The special counsel concluded that the president was not capable of being held responsible for illegally moving classified documents, describing him as a sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory, it says, quote in his interview with her office. Mr Biden's memory was worse. He did not remember when he was vice president, for getting on the first day of the interview when his term ended and for getting on the second day of the interview when his term began. So clearly they're letting him off based on this. Oh, poor Biden, he doesn't remember anything. They're always making excuses. They did the same thing with Hillary and her email saying that no reasonable prosecutor would want to bring it as she pounded her servers with a hammer. Well, here's how Biden reacted when the media asked him about his memory much less.

Speaker 11:

Something the special counsel said in his report is that one of the reasons you were not charged is because, in his description, you are a well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory.

Speaker 12:

I'm well-meaning. I'm an elderly man and I know what the hell I'm doing. I've been president and I put this country back on his feet. I don't need his recommendation, it's totally up to me.

Speaker 11:

How bad is your memory and can you continue as president?

Speaker 12:

My memory is so bad, I can let you speak. That's the answer.

Speaker 13:

Your memory has gotten worse.

Speaker 12:

Mr President, my memory is not good. My memory is fine, my memory. Take a look at what I've done since I've become president. None of you thought I could pass any of the things I got passed.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, take a look at what he's done since president. He did manage to ruin America in just a short period of time. He comes across as defensive and weak, just after Putin is able to give essentially a full history lesson to Tucker. I mean this is crazy. And just after Biden defended his memory, he called the Egyptian president, the president of Mexico. Red State reports that Rick Scott is calling on the cabinet to invoke the 25th Amendment. After the special counsel report, Many are saying that plays right into the den's hands. It does appear that that might be the direction they want to take, seeing as CNN actually ran a fact check against Biden's claims concerning the classified docs. And here it is. He wasn't honest about where they were held. He says all the stuff that was in my home was in filing cabinets that were either locked or able to be locked. But the report says other classified documents about Afghanistan were found in an unsealed and badly damaged box just sitting in his garage. He said none of it was classified. The report says he had documents marked top secret or highly classified. Biden says he didn't share the docs with a ghost writer. Well, the special counsel report says yes, in fact he did. Oh, but maybe it's just his failing memory. He's a sympathetic elderly man, remember Well. Trump impersonator Sean Farage is warning to not let them give Biden a 25th Amendment bail out Watch.

Speaker 13:

It's clear that tonight was a political hit. It's clear When's the last time the Democrats let Joe Biden out at night? When's the last time they let him out at night without pumping him full of whatever it is they give him before the State of the Union to make him look coherent? That never happens. They set him up and they're chumming the water and setting up Republicans to call for the 25th Amendment. The answer is no. Under no circumstances. Do we bail them out here? Under no circumstances. No mercy. You told us that your guy was OK. You told us that Joe Biden was OK. We have been saying for years that this man is in cognitive decline. We said you know, he just talked about his hairy legs on the campaign trail. We said I don't know if everything's all right, saying that he grew up in a Puerto Rican community, or that he grew up in black churches, or that he grew up in synagogues.

Speaker 6:

There's so many examples to give and you know they've been saying, oh, it's fine, it's fine. So don't let them all of a sudden recognize that the president is not only a liar but is very likely in the early stages of dementia and allow that to use this 25th Amendment. The Rice Goop reports. The White House demanded special counsel changes report over Biden's mental fitness. Now imagine if the Trump administration had done this. The media would have accused Trump of trying to interfere with the DOJ investigation. Do you see any reports of that? But you know they lose either way. He was either competent or not and should be criminally prosecuted, or he's not and he should not be president. Promising news on Mayorkas he may still yet be impeached. Cbs News says Steve Scalise is returning to Washington as another Mayorkas impeachment vote is expected. It's like you have to take another deep breath, like can we please see something? Please see the GOP have a backbend plea Backbone. Please See us play as much hardball as them. For once, it would be nice to see some accountability there. That's what our next guest is after Dr Mary Telly Bowden first hit the news when Houston Methodist hospital suspended her hospital privileges for simply tweeting. Vaccine. Mandates are wrong After a big media push to smear her, they then reported her to the Texas Medical Board. She's been censored, defamed and retaliated against just for advocating early treatment, which, for her, by the way, has worked for many of her patients. So welcome, dr Bowden. Thanks for returning back to the counter narrative. Got to get lots of updates from you today. Thanks for having me, christy, you bet. So let's start with your lawsuit against the FDA. Whatever happened with that? Is that still ongoing?

Speaker 10:

It's still ongoing. There has been a little activity which I cannot elaborate on, but in the near future I will be able to disclose. So basically, the way it stands is it was initially dismissed. We appealed the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals so that we could proceed, and then now we're waiting and then the FDA went back and appealed that. So waiting for basically Judge Brown and Galveston to give us the next steps.

Speaker 6:

And basically that lawsuit. Can you give me the rundown of what that was specifically about?

Speaker 10:

Right. So it was. The FDA launched a smear campaign against Ivermectin. They've never done anything like this before with any other medication. But we all know the famous tweet of the attractive healthcare worker Nussleena Horst and the caption saying seriously, y'all, you're not a horse, you're not a cow Stop it. So our claim is that they are overstepping their boundaries. That's not their role. Their role is to approve medications for human use, but they're not allowed to tell the public how to take medications. By them doing that, they're interfering with the doctor-patient relationship, and so initially it was dismissed. It's much more complicated than you would think it would be, but right now we're trying to prove standing. We're trying to prove that I was actually damaged. There are two other plaintiffs, two other doctors, and basically we have to prove that, yes, what they have done has actually impacted my profession, and it has. I mean I still have fights with pharmacists about filling prescriptions for ivermectin, and I mean, even today, I have to send my ivermectin prescriptions to a compounding pharmacy and then I have to send the other prescriptions to CVS, walgreens, because CVS and Walgreens just won't fill them, and they've gotten trickier about it. Now they'll just say, oh, we don't have it in stock or we have to get pre-authorization from insurance companies, but it's always a battle and it takes time out of my day. It delays treatment for patients. So that's where we are with that and we should have an announcement coming up soon.

Speaker 6:

All right. Well, make sure you let us know when you have an announcement about that. What about with the Houston Methodist? Whatever happened with that? It just seems like with the way that they smeared you, you would have been able to come after them. I mean, or a wrongful termination, I mean there's just so much wrong that happened there. You were just saying that they shouldn't be mandated, and then they not only suspended your privileges but then reported you to the medical board. So what happened with that?

Speaker 10:

Yeah, and that started that was two and a half years ago and we're still working it out. Initially I sued them for defamation. Initially that case was dismissed and then I appealed and the judge has reviewed it, but now we're waiting on a decision. In terms of the medical board, yeah, they reported me the medical board. I was offered a settlement. I could have paid them $5,000 and taken additional CME, but I refused that offer and so now it's going forward to administrative court hearing and that will take place end of April. It's a five day process. It's over Zoom, although it is public, and basically, yeah, it's been two and a half years and I'm still trying to clear my name.

Speaker 6:

It's just so insane what they've done to doctor-patient relationships and doctors in general. I mean, it's still unbelievable to this day and we have to hope that they'll hold. We'll be able to hold them accountable, because this will just continue to happen with whatever disease they come up with next, which we can talk about in a little bit. But we just showed a letter that you had shared that had been written to you, the head of the Texas Medical Board. It was funny that you then shared that. He blocked you after sharing this letter. Tell me about this letter. This was from Senator Bob Paul.

Speaker 10:

Senator Hall has been amazing. He's been our strongest advocate in Texas by far. He has been relentless in trying to change the laws and medical freedom bills. There were actually 11 medical freedom bills that were presented to the state in the last session. There were actually eight of those passed and the last one was prohibiting the vaccine mandate. And even that it took three special sessions and it still doesn't protect students. But regardless, Senator Hall has just been wonderful in medical freedom and so yesterday he sent out a letter to the head of the medical board. He also sent it out to the executive commissioner of the Texas Health and Human Services, Cecil Young, basically just putting them on notice that they need to answer for what's going on with these shots. They are there to protect the public and they're not doing that. It's just an outstanding effort and it coincides. We have started myself and three other physicians have started a group called Americans for Health Freedom, and our initial goal, our foundational project, is to gather a group of politicians who are willing to simply state that the COVID shot should be pulled off the market. That's all they need to pledge. Most of those have also pledged not to take donations from Big Pharma, and it started in mid-November and now we have grown. We have 231 on the list. It keeps growing. We have some big names, like Senator Ron Johnson, we have Marjorie Taylor Green, we have Thomas Massey, but we also have precinct chairs, city councilmen. It's just a group grassroots effort and then we expanded that effort to start a political action committee to try to support the candidates on this list, because they are basically putting their names on a list that's going to blackball them from funding. If you're a pharmaceutical company, if you're a hospital association, you're not going to donate any money to these patients, to these politicians. So we are hoping to raise money to help them and the truth doesn't cost a lot of money. We're not backed by millionaires and billionaires. We're backed by the people. We have raised money basically through social media and friends, and that keeps growing as well.

Speaker 6:

Who are you after to get? I mean, obviously you want everybody on this list, but who are you really eyeing to pledge that they won't accept contributions and that they will call for the shot to be off the market?

Speaker 10:

Right, there's some obvious people that have not joined which we feel like they should join at this point Andy Biggs from Arizona. Warren Davidson, matt Gaetz, in terms of Texas, lois Culkhurst Senator Lois Culkhurst she's a senator who's the head of the health committee in Texas. So, yeah, there are a lot more people that we hope will join. Hey, I mean even President Trump he would be a great one to join. Robert F Kennedy, and then Governor Ron DeSantis he got some verbal communication that he wanted to be on the list, but we're still trying to get a written confirmation because we want to hold them accountable and have their names actually written down and they can go to the website americansforhealthfreedomorg and it's very easy.

Speaker 6:

It takes less than a minute to sign the pledge All right, I'm actually writing that down so we can put that in our description below so people can just click on that easy to find no excuses. Thank you for calling them out. This is the way to do it. Definitely a great idea to hold them accountable. Either they're going to get their name on there or they're going to refuse. In either way, they're exposed. In that regard, let's talk back about early treatment. You have talked about how this has actually really worked well for your patients, but now I've noticed that there's been commercials. Pfizer, take this pill instead of the shot. Take this pill. I believe it's Paxlovid. Can you tell me the difference between using that and early treatment? In bite early treatment, we tend to mean ivermectin, essentially.

Speaker 10:

Right. So Paxlovid I've never been a fan of. There are 44 severe drug interactions, including with statins, which are the most commonly prescribed drug in the world, so that it also has a HIV drug with a black box morning in it. It's toxic to the liver and the kidneys. It has a 20% incidence of rebound infection. It's poorly tolerated due to metallic taste and now insurance companies aren't always paying for it. I had a patient come to me last week. She paid over $1,300 for her prescription. On the flip side there's ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin. I'm still prescribing those and I will say COVID is not what it once was. I no longer worry about my patients like I used to. If you treat them early they will most definitely get better, and very rarely do I have to go on and prescribe steroids or breathing treatments, whereas in the past that was more common. But anyway. So ivermectin virtually zero drug interactions. There's a light association with PumaDin, hydroxychloroquine, z-pax. They're all very well tolerated. They should be inexpensive, although because ivermectin has been demonized, it's become cash only and it's become quite expensive. Still not as expensive as Pax Loaded, but yeah, it's just night and day difference between safety of those two treatment algorithms.

Speaker 6:

And as far as those that did get the shot when it first came out perhaps didn't know the side effects I mean because they certainly didn't do anything to try and make people have informed consent. But what about those people that chose to get it? Do you have patients that are suffering from side effects? Have you found ways to treat them?

Speaker 10:

I looked at my new patient appointments the last two years and 7% of my new patient appointments were for people with chronic, debilitating health problems directly following administration of these shots, and people that were previously healthy, no pre-existing conditions, and now are suffering greatly and they have things like neuropathy, which is pain, usually a localized pain. They have fluctuations in their blood pressure and pulse that come on for no reason. They have chronic fatigue, they have some horrible rashes and now the upside is I'm not seeing these with the frequency that I used to and I feel like if you got the shot a couple of years ago and you're not having any problems, odds are you will not have any further problems. What I'm seeing these patients usually the symptoms come on in very close proximity to the shots.

Speaker 6:

Okay, and then we talked about it a little bit at the beginning that they might be planning something else. You know there's a lot of talk about this disease X. Where are you on disease X? Are you worried about it? Are you afraid they're going to pull something else, or what's your stance?

Speaker 10:

Disease X will happen as long as we pour money into disease X. If you look at how much money has been doled out to these research and pharmaceutical companies, this was in 2023. I put a tweet out about it pretty recently. It was actually Dr Kat Lindley. She's one of the other doctors in Americans for Health Freedom. She documented all the money that's being sent to these companies in preparation for disease X. In my view, we're just you know, we're feeding the fuel, we're feeding the fire, fueling the fire. If we removed all that money. I don't think disease X will happen and yeah, we need some strong leaders, some strong congressmen, to shut down all that money.

Speaker 6:

Many are suspecting that if there is another pandemic, it will hit just before election time or shortly thereof. What is going to be your reaction if we have a pandemic two type situation? You know it came at us by surprise the first time. None of us were really expecting something like this to happen. Now that we know their game, we know their playbook. If something similar to COVID-19 appears again shortly before election time, how will your response be different than the first time around?

Speaker 10:

First time around. I'm a solo physician in a very quiet practice. I thought I'm seeing all this in the news but I thought, oh, it's not going to happen to me, I'm going to be on the sidelines. I really didn't think I would be involved and I kind of regret not looking into alternatives more quickly. I started using monoclonal antibodies and then, when the government took over distribution, that's when I looked at alternatives such as ivermetin, hydroxychloroquine, but in retrospect I wish I had dug into it deeper sooner. So that's what I'll do, and now I have a very I have a wonderful network of other doctors who are all like minded. We are constantly communicating with each other, and I think the other thing is the public is not going to stand for it this time around. We almost need another pandemic so that we can see real change, because I just I know people are going to behave differently from the most part.

Speaker 6:

I sure hope so. I mean, that is the hope that we have to hold on to. Now coming up after this interview, I'm going to be talking to Dr Erin Karate, and he is one of the people that is working on the Missouri versus Biden case, which many doctors were affected by getting censored. So what are your hopes there? I mean, are you involved in that at all and what do you see coming from that?

Speaker 10:

Yeah, the censorship problem. I mean very grateful to be back on Twitter. I was actually banned off of Twitter for five months. It's just hard to believe when you look back at everything that happened and how we were censored just for voicing concerns for upholding the Hippocratic oath. And we are in a war, and we're in an information war and it's not going to be one in a month, it's going to take years. But I feel like we're making progress and I feel like we're moving the needle and the public sentiment is changing. I recently pledged I will never share a video from YouTube because I did an interview last week and they had to shut down their YouTube streaming just because I was being interviewed. So you know, I think we need more public participation and little things like that. You know, be loyal to the people that are life-minded that that's a very good point.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, I barely use YouTube anymore. I mean there's there's, thankfully, alternatives that we can support, so thank you for reminding all of us of that. So what can we do to support you in the meantime? I mean you have these lawsuits that are ongoing and I mean it's it's been a wild few years for you, dr Bowden, so what can folks do to support you?

Speaker 10:

I would. I need more support in our effort to recruit politicians to our list, so I would love for people to email their representatives. They can go to the website Americans for health freedom dot org and there's a pledge. They can email that to their representatives. That is a huge help just pestering the people that you elected to protect you, who are staying silent like cowards. And one question to ask them is are you still getting the shots and are you giving them to your children? And if not, why not? If they're not safe enough for you, and if they're not safe enough for your children, why are they safe enough for your constituents? The adverse events is one and eight hundred. That is a ton. I have never seen anything like it from any other product on the market. The shot should have been pulled a long time ago, and if you don't have time to do that and you want to just throw a little money on it, we appreciate any donation you can give. Five dollars is not too little. That will all go towards these brave people running for office who are willing to put their lives on the line and offer the shots to be pulled off the market.

Speaker 6:

Wonderful. Ok, I'll definitely include those links. Well, thank you for giving us those updates and be sure to keep us updated on the FDA lawsuit and everything else you're doing to fight this fight. Thank you so much. Thanks, chrissy, you bet Well up next. It's not enough to pull the shots off the market. There needs to be accountability for censoring those who weren't against them. So, coming up shortly we're going to be talking to Dr John Richardson. He is one of those on the landmark case, biggest case in at least the past 50 years, you know, to try and hold the government accountable, that Missouri versus Biden. So that's coming up. But first just want to remind you that our friends at Richardson Nutritional Center, r&cstorecom, use the medical protocols of Dr John Richardson, senior MD. He treated thousands of patients successfully in the 70s with an all natural metabolic regime for those who might be in a fight with a disease and to those who want to guard against disease. So our most powerful option is the pro three bundle, which features 90 days of 500 milligrams of vitamin B, 17 pro enzymes and vitamin B 15 or panjamic acid. So just go to R&CStorecom, slash Christy Lee, r&cstorecom, slash Christy Lee. That'll bring the costs down to that combo for a dollar 50 a day. And if you want to go with the prevention bundle, same three components with 100 milligrams per day of those, those vitamins, just go to R&CStorecom. Slash, christy Lee, and your cost will be just a dollar a day. So make sure you check them up, check them out, be prepared for whatever may be coming down the pike. All right, now it's time to hear from those others that support this show.

Speaker 3:

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Speaker 6:

Well, based on the remarks so far, it's looking like the Supreme Court will smack down efforts to keep Trump off the ballot. And Vanderstiel pointed out that even the leftist judges are condemning efforts Justice Sotomayor saying President Trump has had no due process regarding any claim of insurrection. Justice Kagan says one state's decision to take a candidate off the ballot affects everybody else's rights. And what's the state doing deciding who other citizens get to vote for president? Even Justice Kintanji Brown Jackson says the president is not an officer of the United States, so Section 3 does not apply to him at all. So so much for the mass media machine trying to convey that the Trump appointees would be the ones to save him. Even the liberal judges can't ignore just how absurd this whole effort was. But there is another major case before the Supreme Court Missouri versus Biden the free speech case against government censorship on social media. Now Dr Aaron Kariyati is bringing this case. He's a physician specializing in psychiatry and author of three books, including most recently the new abnormal the rise of the biomedical security state. A fellow and director of the program of bioethics and American democracy at the Ethics of Public Policy Center on matters of public policy and health care, he has just filed at the California Senate and the United States Senate and so many other things that we don't have time to even cover on this show. But here with an update, please welcome, dr Kariyati. Now I just really messed up your name, dr Kariyati. Did I do it that right?

Speaker 4:

time Close enough, right that time.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, okay, woo, I'll tell you what man. I have so many different names to try and remember and pronounce, but better than that is what you're doing. Like I said, you have so many contributions. It was really shocking that I was first introduced to you when you were going through, I believe, persecution by the university you were teaching at. Is that correct?

Speaker 15:

That's right. I had challenged the University of California's vaccine mandate in federal court and I was a professor at the University of California in the School of Medicine and director of their medical ethics program at the time. But in retaliation for challenging that particular policy, the university fired me. So I'm now happily employed at the Ethics and Public Policy Center and get some support from the Brownstone Institute. So I landed on my feet. But yeah, last time we chatted, christy, that was an interesting time, that was a long time ago. Professional life, it feels like a long time ago. I think it was about two years ago, maybe.

Speaker 6:

It was a long time ago, but at the same time, like everything's been so wild that I've been like, wow, it's been a couple years since I've interviewed Dr Kariyati, that's right. And I was like, oh my gosh, because it's just, we can't keep up with all the wildness that they're trying to do among them. They've tried to censor us, they've tried to suppress information and they're continuing to do so, despite your being a plaintiff in this Missouri versus Biden case. But we'll get to how they're trying to bypass that and how they're pushing onward with that. Let me know what's going on with the case right now. We showed a couple articles you've written so far.

Speaker 15:

Yeah, so this is a case that was brought by Missouri and Louisiana and five private plaintiffs, of which I am one, and we prevailed at the district court level where the district court judge said if what plaintiffs alleges true, this is the worst violation of free speech in United States history. That wasn't our lawyer saying that, that was a federal judge saying that in granting our request for what's called a preliminary injunction basically asking the court even before the case goes to trial, just on the basis of the evidence we've submitted so far, we're asking the court to step in, put a stop to what the government is doing, which is coercing, leaning on pressuring social media companies to do their bidding and to censor the speech of hundreds of thousands of Americans online, literally. The government didn't like that decision, obviously, and so they appealed to the circuit court, the Fifth Circuit. A three judge unanimous panel at the Fifth Circuit upheld that preliminary injunction, so again sided with the plaintiffs against the government. Government didn't like that either, so they're all for four now on federal judges, but they decided to appeal to the Supreme Court, so the injunction is now before the Supreme Court. We just submitted last week our written brief making our argument for the Supreme Court justices and we will have oral arguments in Washington DC on March 18th, coming up here next month. So I'll be in DC for that. I'll keep folks posted on any developments and updates from the courtroom. I'll be able to be in the courtroom as a plaintiff when we do the oral arguments and when the lawyers are questioned by the Supreme Court justices. Christie, I think we have so much evidence of not only violations of the First Amendment but really obvious and egregious and horrible violations of the First Amendment. You were mentioning the liberal judges earlier and you know free speech is not a liberal, conservative issue. At least it shouldn't be. It seems to have become a partisan issue in recent years, which is so strange. But the evidence that we're going to present to the Supreme Court is such that I have a hard time imagining any of the justices not upholding the injunction against the government, because someday the shoe is going to be on the other foot. Maybe they're sympathetic to the current administration's concerns or their priorities or their interpretation of reality, but you know, as soon as you allow one administration to do this, those mechanisms of power and control are going to be utilized by the next person to take office and the next person in power, so this is an issue that really should concern all Americans. Unfortunately, like so many things today, it's been framed in partisan terms where it should be. The Constitution is what all of us should hold in common, and the first freedoms guaranteed in the First Amendment are really the foundation for our free society.

Speaker 6:

It's really insane how many things have become partisan that really shouldn't be, and just even the meaning of words at the very foundation we talk about. Like the liberal judges might have issue with what people say. I mean, just think of how absurd that says like seek sounds. I mean liberal, you would think. Oh, people should be able to do and say what they think. That's liberal, you know, but not anymore. It's like liberals now want to control every aspect of our lives. It's just like, oh, my goodness, how did we get here? This has been a wild ride with this Missouri versus Biden case. I've been following it. I know Tracy Beans has done a lot of great work with undercover DC like really helping me stay informed with it, and it's been kind of up and down because, well, we're so grateful that it's going in the plaintiff's direction. At first there was that hiccup where CISA wasn't included. It's my understanding that they have been included now and it's also extremely frustrating that, again to my understanding, there's a stay on it. So it's like what they can continue this egregious control up until a decision is made. Tell me what it's been like to go through that roller coaster.

Speaker 15:

Yeah, so the initial injunction included four agencies that were named among the defendants the White House, the CDC, the FBI and the Surgeon General and we came back to the circuit court and said, look, there's another little known federal agency, which you mentioned called CISA the Cybersecurity Infrastructure Security Agency which is actually the nerve center of the government censorship apparatus. They're the central clearinghouse through which requests from all the other agencies go to the social media companies, and so that's sort of the fulcrum of the whole operation. We thought they needed to be included in the injunction and the circuit court. When we went back and petitioned them for that, fortunately they agreed with us and they expanded the injunction to include CISA. So that was a good development. On the downside, when the Supreme Court agreed to hear the appeal and the injunction, they did put in administrative stay, meaning the injunction is not going to go into effect until they rule on it. Now some people have mistakenly interpreted that to be sort of a weather vane of which way the judges might be leaning. That administrative stay had nothing to do with the merits of the arguments on either side. It was simply the Supreme Court hitting the pause button and saying, look, if we're going to enjoin the White House and four other federal agencies in the executive branch, I think, respecting the separation of powers. They wanted to say we want to make sure that we get this right. We want to make sure that if this goes into effect it's based on our ruling. So unfortunately that has delayed the injunction going into effect for a few months, but I can say that at the very latest we will get a ruling, and possibly before then, but if they're very latest by June when the Supreme Court closes its current term and issues all of its rulings, and so hopefully that will be in plenty of time to get the government off the social media company's backs in the months leading up to the election and, of course, related to all kinds of other important issues in American public life. One of the things that we discovered in getting our 20,000 pages of documents on discovery and the six depositions that we've taken already from the defendants, including from Anthony Fauci, is that initially the plaintiffs were arguing that we were censored based on remarks or articles or things that we had shared online that were critical of the government's COVID policies. So it was very much focused on COVID and a little bit focused on what we knew about election interference, with the 100 Biden laptop story being suppressed. But what we've discovered now is that there's a whole range of other issues that the government has been censoring on, from critics of the government's foreign policy, whether it was our withdrawal from Afghanistan, support from the war in Ukraine, that the Treasury Department, of all things, was involved in censorship requests, trying to suppress voices that were criticizing our monetary and our fiscal policies, domestic policies, ranging from abortion to debates about gender and gender ideology or gender, so-called gender affirmative care. Those were being censored as well. So you, basically you could take any any issue of contention of you know heavy debate of importance in American public life. The federal government has had its thumb on the scale, trying to control the flow of information online, trying to control what you're going to see and what you're not going to see on your Facebook feed, on your Twitter, your ex feed, what's going to come up in search results. The censorship can operate in ways that are very subtle and sort of backdoor, such that when you're being censored, you don't even necessarily know that you're being censored. It's just that you know maybe 5% of your followers don't see this thing that you've posted on, that's critical of the government's policies and that may not sound so bad until you realize. No, the algorithm is censoring the 5% of followers who themselves have the largest following, and so by tweaking things in this way, you can prevent something from going viral. You can prevent ideas from taking hold and get getting traction and getting a hearing. So it's it's a little hard to wrap your head around how the censorship is working, but the best metaphor I've that I've seen was put forward by the novelist Walter Kern, and Kern said it's kind of like you have the government mixing a record right. It's like they're sitting at the sound board listening to all the different tracks. You know the AI is scraping all the information on the internet and as this idea that's critical of the, the government's favorite policy, starts to gain traction, they could just say I'm going to turn the volume down on the snare drum, right, that's getting too loud. And maybe this other idea over here, this other set of voices that the government wants amplified, are not organically gaining traction. So they're just going to reach over there and say, well, I want more snare dump, more, more, more cowbell right, turn the volume.

Speaker 6:

You know, gotta have more cowbell.

Speaker 15:

So they'll turn the volume up on that, and they can through basically pressuring the social media companies to change their terms of service, to change their algorithms and to tinker behind the scenes. In that way, they're exercising total control of the information ecosystem. And as someone who works, you know in that information ecosystem, in alternative media, you know better than certainly better than I do how important it is to be able to grow your audience on a level playing field, right, organically, and not have your ability to reach an audience artificially suppressed, particularly artist, artificially suppressed by the United States government, which is clearly violating the constitutional right to free speech.

Speaker 6:

Yeah, on that note, just from a personal experience, you know, leaving corporate media, I had been in journalism for so long that I was actually at a level where I was getting paid very well, I had benefits, you know, and then when I left and went independent, it's like you have to start from scratch and to learn a whole new way to do things. And then on top of that, you see all these people that are finding success through monetization efforts and all of that. But on my back offices of Facebook, everything, of course, like everything, I'm getting dinged. I can't monetize, so it's just like they kill you in so many ways. They've not only duct tape your mouth, but they reach inside your bank and I mean it's cool, I mean, and to that end of just how wide reaching censorship efforts are, to your point about turning up, you know, or turning up the cabal and turning the volume down on the snare drum. It's crazy that just even controlling this information, they're not just controlling the narrative, they're not just controlling outcomes, potentially, but really they're controlling morale and they're controlling emotion, because yeah, that's right. Before we knew that this was going on yeah, before we knew this was going on. There's so many of us that thought the same but felt we were alone in that feeling because we couldn't see all the other people that were out there, you couldn't connect with anyone else who was expressing the same, the same ideas and how.

Speaker 15:

How important it was for people, particularly, let's say, during during the COVID crisis, to be able to connect with other people who were saying and thinking the same things and to know I'm not crazy. Other people are seeing this. Other people are recognizing that what is happening to us makes no sense from a public health perspective, is violating our rights and freedoms and is causing enormous collateral harms. So, yeah, that's absolutely correct and it's it's important also for Americans to realize. The Supreme Court has made it clear in previous free speech cases that the right to free speech exists not just for the speaker but also for the listener. In other words, you know some of your audience may think well, you know, unlike Christie or Aaron, I don't have a podcast, I don't have a TV show, I don't have a microphone, I'm not even posting a lot on social media. Maybe I go on Facebook or X just to read what other people are posting. And so censorship probably hasn't affected me, but it still has affected you, because free speech implies not just the right to say what you want to say and gain an audience if there are people that want to listen, but also the right to hear a whole range of opinions, because we can have an informed public if only one side of particular debates is allowed a hearing. And so that's why I say quite literally it's a form of mind control. Because you may think that you're trying to curate, you know, your social media feed or your news sources in such a way that you can get a range of opinions or you can find voices outside of the mainstream, if that's what you're looking for. But we're in a situation right now in which the government is making it increasingly difficult to do that. And the First Amendment is very clear that the government doesn't have to prevent speech entirely to violate the First Amendment. Because if you look at the language of the Free Speech Clause in the First Amendment, it doesn't say government shall prevent free speech or prohibit free speech. It says government shall not abridge free speech. In other words, anything that diminishes my ability to reach an audience is unconstitutional. And you know the government's gone certainly way beyond that threshold in recent years with the control that they have been exercising, the heavy-handed control they've been exercising against social media. Another thing, Chris, that surprised us about this case was we thought it might be hard to prove pressure or coercion, because it may just look like the social media companies are ideologically aligned with the current administration and they're just going to be working hand in glove. But what we found, actually to our edification, is that the social media companies really did try to push back. They did not want the government telling them what to do. They did not want the government harassing them on their back, threatening excessive regulation, threatening to break up their monopolies. But what happened over time is that every time they pushed back the threats and the coercion, the pressure just escalated to the point where they finally caved in right. So we don't have to prove over coercion. The legal threshold is coercion or significant encouragement. But we have, in Missouri, the Biden proven both significant encouragement and also many, many instances of frank, heavy-handed coercion. And so this is as the federal judge at the district court said. This is the most egregious violation of free speech in United States history.

Speaker 6:

Well, let me ask you this, because it's increasingly obvious just how brazen and evil this has become. I mean, even with Tucker's recent statement preceding his interview of Putin, the aggression of basically trying to get in the middle and preventing the interview from happening altogether from the government. And then there's so many cases of the Supreme Court making a decision the affirmative action case and Biden has weaseled around that. There's so many examples that he's weaseled around that it's hard to keep track. But that was a major one. Oh, the student loan decision, and then he still was able to weasel his way around that. I mean, who's to say that if they rule in your favor, they just will ignore it, like so many of these other decisions.

Speaker 15:

Well, certainly, I think the government is already working to find workarounds, but the injunction will make it much more difficult for them to carry on, for a couple of reasons. One is in this respect, the injunction may be the most important aspect of the case, perhaps even more important than the final ruling, because, while the case is still going on, if they continue to engage in this behavior, not only are they adding to our evidential record and improving our odds of getting a favorable final ruling, but also any government official who continues to do this after the injunction is put in place. They can be hauled into court and held liable for civil penalties not just for civil penalties, but also for criminal penalties for violating the injunction. So once the injunction is in place, any government official is going to have hanging over his or her head the threat of fines or even jail time. The federal judge could haul them into court and say we told you to stop doing this. We now have evidence that you're continuing to do this in spite of the injunction and you are going to be subject to punishment not just a civil suit for violating First Amendment rights, but a criminal, potential criminal penalties for violating the injunction. So that is going to have a very strong chilling effect on a lot of this activity. The other thing that's going to help is that in the district court ruling on page 100, the judge kind of subtly hints at the fact that if social media companies don't try to push back sufficiently, they could become entwined in such a way that the court would consider them to be a state actor and therefore subject to the First Amendment of the Constitution and therefore liable from any user if they violate that user's constitutional rights. So once the social media companies recognize that they may be held liable for censorship if they cooperate with the government's efforts, in the same way that the government would be held liable. So if they're no longer private companies, they're now basically public actors that are subject to the First Amendment of the Constitution. That's going to change their calculus. They're not going to want to play ball, they're going to push back harder. They're going to potentially throw the person on the other end under the bus. Right, look, if you call me again and make these demands, I'm sending your name to the district court in Louisiana and you'll have to answer to the federal judge there. So the dynamics could, I think, really change. Are they going to stop trying to censor. No, but this will definitely put a dent in the current censorship apparatus and they'll have to reconfigure something that's not going to be able to operate nearly so brazenly.

Speaker 6:

Yeah Well.

Speaker 15:

I think that would be important first step.

Speaker 6:

Yes, thank you for your efforts in this and we're going to definitely want to keep updated. We also need to have you back on to talk about your book, because we didn't get to that and now we're out of time. But I am nevertheless going to put a link to your book in the comments below or in the description below so people can check it out. But we'll be having Dr Erin Karate back on to talk about that another time because I'm out of time. So quick break and I'll be back with the scripture of the day. Now I'm on the right side.

Speaker 5:

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Speaker 6:

All right, here's the scripture of the day. It's from Romans 837. No, in all these things, we are more than conquerors, through him who loved us, for I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus, our Lord. So, while all there's these things that are unknown, that is something that we can know we are never separate from God's love. All right, well, thanks again for watching and don't forget to share the Counter Narrative.

(Cont.) Two-tiered Journalism & A Two-tiered Justice System | Counter Narrative Ep. 209